tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2432734053115127369.post1185018535912354913..comments2023-07-05T03:28:27.772-07:00Comments on Shalom, Dena: Exposing the Ego ~ The Tactics of Attack & DefenseDenahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05100904350829701234noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2432734053115127369.post-38967980292985651962009-11-02T06:00:30.282-08:002009-11-02T06:00:30.282-08:00Yes, my friend. I make no apology for repeating th...Yes, my friend. I make no apology for repeating this, which for me is what it all boils down to -<br /><br /><i>If we could only read the whole Bible in the light of the truth that God is Love, and that we've just taken a very long time to wake up to the full implications of that fact, All is revealed. All.</i><br /><br />All Creation is waiting in great, joyous expectancy for the revealing of the Children of God (Us!). Let's not keep it waiting any longer - it's so inconsiderate and unnecessary!:DHarry Rileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14341037712756284832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2432734053115127369.post-20177718389311539632009-11-01T19:39:29.438-08:002009-11-01T19:39:29.438-08:00One more thought ... I see that Christianity is a ...One more thought ... I see that Christianity is a creation of man ... and that we utterly missed the point of Jesus' life, teachings, and death/resurrection-message (the early followers focused on the resurrection, and not the crucifixion -- no images of the crucifixion were in any art 'til after 1,000 years, in the Dark Ages).<br /><br />I see that Christianity is a perpetuation of the Pharisees. Merely swapping out the need for conditional good works, for conditional good beliefs.<br /><br />But God loves, saves, and redeems unconditionally. NOTHING created (including ourselves) can separate us from the love of God. Nothing.Denahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05100904350829701234noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2432734053115127369.post-62880130396882463662009-11-01T19:36:03.019-08:002009-11-01T19:36:03.019-08:00(continued)
- I see that Jesus showed us that lov...(continued)<br /><br />- I see that Jesus showed us that love was more powerful than our fear-based system of "enforced righteousness". <br /><br />- I see that He was saying, "you insist upon a sacrifice? Ok, I'll show you sacrifice -- you think God demands sacrifice, but I'll show you that God becomes the sacrfice, so that you will finally GET it that God loves you, that God doesn't want to be your Master, but your Husband ... and my very last prayer, prior to the crucifixion, is that you would know that you are all one ... with each other, and with God. I'll show you that God doesn't use wrath, as you've long imagined & feared, but woos you with love ... for you have only been God's enemies in your own minds, and never in the mind of God."<br /><br />That's what I'm seeing ... still working out all the implications. The Spirit will lead us, each of us, into all truth, as we can bear it.Denahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05100904350829701234noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2432734053115127369.post-51004888199307798012009-11-01T19:35:22.487-08:002009-11-01T19:35:22.487-08:00Excellent questions, Stephen ...!
And it's th...Excellent questions, Stephen ...!<br /><br />And it's the VERY thing I've been grappling with, for months, as my own private journal (that which remains in the bathroom) would attest...<br /><br />Don't take my words as THE answer ... I'm just another sojourner. I know this, for myself, from this unfolding journey ... that MUCH that I'd previously been taught, by the traditions of man, has proven to be false at worst, and twisted at best. Agendas have proliferated.<br /><br />A few thoughts:<br /><br />- I no longer believe that Jesus felt separated from God, or abandoned by God, while being crucified ... I believe He cried out the first line (the "title") of Psalm 22, which begins "My God my God, why have you forsaken me?" Jews didn't number the psalms .. they knew them by the first lines. And, since most male Jews had memorized all the psalms, they would know what Jesus was quoting ... and they would recite it, and know that He was claiming that He was bringing salvation to the world (I see salvation as "wholeness"). Read the whole psalm, especially the ending, to see what Jesus was saying, with what little breath He had left.<br /><br />- Personal salvation is a new concept in history ... scripture speaks of saving *all*. And it was brought about, historically, with the advent of the new covenant (read what the prophets wrote about the coming new covenant, also called the new heavens and new earth). As in Adam ALL died (in their minds) .. so too in Christ are ALL made alive -- same "all" on both sides of that equivalent statement.<br /><br />- I no longer believe in Substitutionary Penal Atonement (which was invented in the Middle Ages) -- that *someone* had to die in order for sins to be forgiven ... i.e., "God had to kill God in order to appease God." I don't believe that God had to be appeased, that God was out for blood. I believe that that's our own projection we've put upon God.<br /><br />- Studying the Christus Victor Atonement theory helped me out quite a bit -- I recommend it (& there are many Atonement theories -- that alone gives me pause).<br /><br />- I notice that Jesus declared some people forgiven, PRIOR to the crucifixion. How could He do that IF it was necessary for Him to die, in order for anyone's sins to be forgiven...?<br /><br />- It seems to me that the traditional view diminishes Jesus far more than most realize. It says that we were all alienated from the Omnipresent God (even though David says that if he made his bed in Sheol, the place of the dead, God was *there* -- how can we be separated from Omnipresence anyway?). *Someone* had to shed blood as a sacrifice (even though God had said, "I do not desire sacrifice, but mercy"). So, Jesus did it. However, WE, in our delusions, are far more powerful than the Savior of the World, in that our unbelief is said to be able to out-do His Atonement ... unless we "believe right" (which is a work, just as "doing right"), we go to "hell". So, according to the traditional view, Jesus is the Savior of the tiny minority, while "satan" is the winner of the vast majority. Making the Atonement an ineffectual sacrifice. Making us far more powerful than He who "desires/wills that none should perish." I just don't buy it anymore. It doesn't pass the BS test for me anymore.<br /><br />I'm currently seeing that Jesus' death was to show us the absurdity of the sacrificial sysrem, which I believe humans came up with (seeing God as one of the angry "volcano gods" who "demanded" virgins and firstborns to appease them -- and later, after the return from Babylon, the priests wrote out the minutae of the tedious sacrificial system -- they added to the scripture). <br /><br />(to be continued)Denahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05100904350829701234noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2432734053115127369.post-38848820331806812072009-11-01T18:20:26.484-08:002009-11-01T18:20:26.484-08:00Your take on all of this ego madness contains much...Your take on all of this ego madness contains much insight. The only fly in the ointment for me is the implication that Christ gets reduced in some significant ways. Maybe it's just me, but I see the implication that Jesus just becomes the "revealer of the real" ... a real that stands outside of Him, instead of a saving reality that He created. One who, by his own example and life as parable, simply acts a a helpful undeceiving force in the universe, rather than it's all in all.<br /><br />According to what you've said so far, please help with this question: "Did Christ have to die, and was His death effectual in any way?" Did Him becoming sin just fulfill a parable, or did it really happen?<br /><br />As the other commenter noted, if we were only alienated from God in our own minds, what does the Christ actually become for us?<br /><br />Thanks for letting me spout.StephenThttp://helpmyunbelief.org/goodnews/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2432734053115127369.post-34057969867436328552009-10-30T03:05:51.148-07:002009-10-30T03:05:51.148-07:00Honestly, Dena, I feel so 'outside the box'...Honestly, Dena, I feel so 'outside the box' now that I've forgotten what the box even looks like! And that's probably the point - the 'box' never actually existed, but was only 'in our minds', a figment of our collective imagination.<br /><br />Yes, we can actually put <i>God</i> 'outside the camp' - crucify Him indeed! - and live within our own tiny, sad, isolated world of imaginary need, while all the grand vista of Sufficient Life is spread for our delight.<br /><br />Boy, there's so much richness and depth in all this, and it makes me quite dizzy!:)Harry Rileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14341037712756284832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2432734053115127369.post-22646921020804782412009-10-29T11:27:20.942-07:002009-10-29T11:27:20.942-07:00I really like how you put that, Harry ... it strik...I really like how you put that, Harry ... it strikes me as having truth. Yes, it's incredibly and radically divergent from the traditions-of-man story ... but what is the outcome of that story? The result is a bunch of people claiming to follow Christ, who ignore His teachings, and look nothing like Him. Rather than embracing the "outcasts" they malign them, attack them, and cast them out of the "camp". The trick is to see how we each do that, within ourselves, and toward others ... ahhhh, the sublimity of forgiveness...!Denahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05100904350829701234noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2432734053115127369.post-54267738182302305412009-10-29T02:33:24.879-07:002009-10-29T02:33:24.879-07:00Thanks again for your eloquence, Dena.
Here's...Thanks again for your eloquence, Dena.<br /><br />Here's where I am with the whole Jesus/guilt/sin thing, a position which you've helped me put into words. As ever, this is an evolving thing in my heart.<br /><br />I'm coming to the idea that Jesus was, is a Living Parable (not that any idea can ever contain him, of course:)). As he allways had to explain his verbal parables because we never 'got them', so we managed to totally 'not get' him, but project all our 'stuff' onto him. We 'killed' him, believing that by so doing we could get rid of said stuff, which we'd 'laid on him', because we couldn't cope with having it 'on/in us' (the burden of our <i>imagined</i> guilt). <br /><br />He knew that would happen, of course, because he knew us totally. <br /><br />His life, death and resurrection was the sublime three act drama (parable) God used to get our attention, to show us that our whole way of thinking was utterly flawed, that we were only alienated from God <i>in our own minds</i>, and that the Truth is that we, God, All That Is, are One, and allways have been.<br /><br /><i>And herein is Love...<br /><br />Come unto me all that labour... and you will find rest for your souls...</i>Harry Rileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14341037712756284832noreply@blogger.com