Wednesday, September 30, 2009

Fulfillment Follow-Up...

For those who don't read the comments that follow the blog-posts, Sue made this important and far-reaching comment to yesterday's post, and I thought to share it at-large, and the conversation that followed, in case it would address anyone else's thoughts...

Sue said:
I still really must admit that I do hold to a literal return of Jesus and a new heavens and a new earth. Be interested in your thoughts

I responded:I do not see a future coming of Jesus -- for if we are waiting for a literal/physical fulfillment of prophecy, then we are going *backwards* into what is lesser/inferior. I see that the spiritual always trumps the physical. AND, I see that we are now in, and have been in, the new heavens and new earth ... it's one and the same as the new covenant. We've just been prevented, by the traditions of man, from seeing, and thus experiencing, what we have, and who we are.

(I see that the Jews, insisting on a literal fulfillment of a King on a throne, missed the coming of Jesus the first time ... and Christians, insisting on a literal fulfillment of a King on a throne, missed/are missing the coming of Jesus the second time. To insist on a literal fulfillment is to miss the point, and to miss the significance of what is *at hand* ... will the world, the environment, the interactions of mankind improve, in the future? YES! As more and more awaken to what IS, rather than believing the insanity of the Christian forever-in-limbo, tread water 'til Jesus comes to fix it all -- and fry the majority -- message...!)

The entire old covenant was tangible/physical/external ... and the fulfillment was spiritual/internal. The spiritual is superior to the tangible. Always. Law on stone became law on hearts ... circumcision of flesh became circumcision of "hearts" ... external observation of Sabbath became internal Sabbath rest (way of Life) ... seeing God as external/distant became realizing God as internal/nearer-than-breath/within. The Kingdom, as Jesus put it, does *not* come by observation (IOW, we cannot see it with our physical eyes) ... it is within us, in our midst, accessible by way of understanding ... repenting (turning from) the carnal/egoic mind, and realizing that we HAVE the Mind of Christ. This happens one heart at a time, not in a cataclysmic world-wide "enforced from outside of us" event. God has done all that needs to be done ... "It is finished." The only thing remaining is for us to *awaken* to what *IS*, to what God has done, to who we ARE, so that all of creation will be released from the madness of our egoic/separation-mentality thinking...!

Of course, the Spirit IS leading us into all truth, and Christ IS drawing all men to Himself, so it's inevitable ... we all must be willing to examine what we've been taught to believe (or have assumed), and willing to let go (i.e., "die to self") so that our minds can be renewed, so that lies can be replaced with truth, so that what is in the way can fall away, and we can HERE AND NOW experience the Abundant Life with is our ultimate reality.

As a man thinks in his own heart, so is he. I had to ask myself, "is what I believe enabling me to live the Abundant Life? Is what I believe leading me to Fear, or to Perfect Love?"

IOW, how are your current beliefs working for you...?

Sue responded:
Yeah, that makes sense. But it doesn't mean that he can't come again, know what I mean? That all makes sense - although verses about taking the throne of David come to mind that make me wonder. But I'm not talking about the old law. I'm talking about what's to come next. I just can't help wondering, you know?

I respond: I wonder if literalizing the prophecies renders them moot..? I see that Jesus used parables to teach truths that were beyond-the-surface ... with the point being to look *beyond* the surface. Why wouldn't God, who never changes, also have employed the metaphorical lessons in prior generations ... as in, wouldn't the OT scriptures (including the prophecies) also have the purpose of using the tangibles to demonstrate, to symbolize, a deeper meaning?

So, I see the throne of David given as a tangible demonstration of what would later be fulfilled in a far-superior spiritual realization. Everything else demonstrated in the OT as tangible (Law, Sabbath, circumcision, Kingdom) was fulfilled in a spiritual way (law on hearts, sabbath as way of life, Kingdom within). Why would the throne of David be the sole literal exception to that...? Especially given that Jesus said that His Kingdom would *not* come by observation (we cannot see it) ... but would be (is) in our midst, within us. The Abundant Life is achieved by faith, by grace, not by being overwhelmed with physical evidence and proofs ... then it would no longer be faith.

It is fun to fathom the possibilities of the future ... but for me, the way I frame the story makes all the difference for how I live here and now. And I notice that NOW is all there is. The past is gone, and the future never arrives ... all I have is NOW. God is the I Am, not the I Was (& too bad we missed it), or the I Will Be (sorry it's taking so long..!). If I'm waiting for God to *do* something in the future to "fix this mess", then I miss that He wants me, as part of the Body of Christ (NOT the Christian/church definition, BTW), to be His hands and feet, to cooperate with Him here and now, to make a difference in this world, to bring healing to others' minds, bodies, lives ...!

The traditional Christian message of "this will get worse and worse and then Jesus will show up to liberate the few and fry the many" renders me to treading water (in limbo) at best, and cowering in fear at worst (what IF I'm one of those to whom He'll say, "I never knew you"...?) ... and further, I'll regard this planet & most humans, as future flame-fodder (why bother to heal them?), and I will thus rejoice as things escalate in "appearances" of evil. I see that the story of a future-return of Jesus has brought much pain and destruction upon mankind and this planet ... so that Christians actually celebrate when tragedies happen (thinking it means Jesus is soon coming!) ... and has rendered most of us to be self-insulated and passive, rather than participating fully in the Abundant Life we have here and now, being salt and Light and Love to those who are dying from a perceived lack, and an erroneous notion of being separated from God ...

So, that's why I'm passionate, that's why I think the fulfillment understanding matters.

Yes, of course, God can do anything He chooses ... but I see that all of the scriptures (from which we derive our notions of future happenings) is now, and has been fulfilled. So, whatever happens in the future, is speculation -- we have nothing telling us, in scripture, of what happens in the future (everything written in Scripture has long been fulfilled).

I want to be about the business of living, of healing, of sharing, of shining my Light, of BEING Light, to this (self-imposed) dark world ... recognizing that He is HERE now, even more so than when He was walking the planet (Jesus said it would be better for us if He physically left, so that the Spirit came -- i.e., that we became more aware of the Spirit who is always here, within us, AS us) ... for I see that the unseen/spiritual reality is more real than the seen/tangible appearance of reality.

LOL, now I'm preaching ...! Ok, I'll shut up...!

Shalom, Dena


cwtpmom said...

It's well and fine Dena, but what will you say to Jesus when He actually comes? Will He think you a denier? What do your children think of your belief? Are you giving them the option of believing Jesus is coming again? I remember as a little girl how much hope that gave me. I can remember looking forward to the millennium, when animals will not kill each other, and I'd be able to play with them. I can remember imagining what it would be like to not have any bad people around us to make us afraid. Itl gave me a deep rooted desire to live a good life.

You used to refer to the day which will suddenly come where two will be standing together, one will be taken to meet God, the other will be destroyed. What about that? That didn't happen in 70AD.

My MIL was told in her prophetic patriarchal blessing that she would accompany the Savior when he comes. I look forward to seeing her again, and I know I will.

JS knew when he was receiving revelation from Heaven. And it was him who taught us that everyone could have that privilege.

I'm not saying this to dispute you, because I understand your "journey", but I have absolute confidence that Jesus is coming to rule and reign on the earth.

I pray that somewhere in your journey God will reveal that truth to you too. Everyone who has a desire may receive that knowledge by revelation.

Revelation comes like a wave in the sea. It washes over you and then rests back. Sometimes you only feel it for a split second. but you know it has been there because it leaves a print in your soul that can last forever. When I say "I know Jesus is coming" I can feel revelation in the words. I pray that this same revelation will find its way into your soul.

Dena said...

I appreciate your views, the teachings you believe, and your concern for me, for my children.

I do not share them, however... and I have to follow Him as He leads me.

As for what I would say to Him, why would I wait..? He and I speak all the time now. :)

How could I deny the very One who fills me and gives me His life?

I teach my children to hear His Voice ... what He shows them is between Him and them.

As for the rest, I see it differently ... I do not believe that any of it was meant to be literal, but symbolic ... and yes, I do believe that it was already fulfilled.

I welcome your prayers that I would be led into all truth ... I'm quite open to anything He wants to show me ... thanks!

MysticBrit said...

Yet again, I have the weird experience of agreeing with almost every word you write, Dena.

A thought that occurs to me is, what is your current understanding of the phrase, 'the Mind of Christ'? You use it a lot, and I wondered if you could expand on it a bit. (Knowing how short of ideas for posts you are;)...)

Dena said...

The Mind of Christ ... my thoughts (unless they're His!):

I see that we *have* (according to Paul) the Mind of Christ ... we now possess it. My understanding is that we've always had it ... I see it synonymous with the Wisdom of God (Sophia), which was available prior to Jesus appearing as the Christ ... according to Proverbs.

I'm seeing that it IS our truest mind, our truest thoughts, our truest nature ... for we are manifestations of the Life of God.

The Mind of Christ is that still, small Voice within us, which is always speaking, to us, for us, through us (and to which we have the choice to tune in, or not).

The Mind of Christ is the Spirit of God who is leading us into all truth ...

I also have the carnal mind, or the mind of the ego ... those delusional thoughts that *think* I am separate from God, that there is duality in reality, that which thinks I must strive and earn and work hard to achieve that which I already have ... (pearl of great price, in our own "backyard" ... buried, and yet possessed).

The carnal/egoic mind, to me, is the veil that blinds me from seeing who I really am, and keeps me from experiencing the Abundant Life, the Kingdom of Heaven, here and now. It's all fluff and nonsense masquerading as threats and fears, but only with smoke and mirrors ...

And even THAT is designed to enable me to wake up to the absurdity of all those illusions, so that I can inquire within, and rely more upon the Mind of Christ, than the blustering, fearful, anxious, lack-perceiving, separation-believing mind of the ego.

AISI, it's a journey, a process, of "dying to self" ... letting go of what "i" (ego) think I know, to that what "I" (Christ) really knows, breaking through that veil of illusion. AS my mind is renewed, AS lies are challenged and replaced with truth, more and more "i" am aligned with the Mind of Christ, so that "my" mind and His Mind are perceived as the One they really ARE ... thus my will and His will are experienced as synonymous, and thus my desires and His desires are experienced as synonymous.

This happens, and is happenING, though I can resist it by clinging to the insistence of believing what I've always believed (and if I do what I've always done, I'll get what I've always gotten).

And YET, He is drawing (dragging!) ALL men to Himself, and God uses ALL things to work together for our good ... so though I may resist, even my own resistance turns out in my favor, as I experience the consequences for my ignorant choices, and come to my senses (ala Prodigal in the pig sty), and turn toward Home ... where, of course, God, who has always been there, waiting, watching, loving me, meets me, and CELEBRATES!!!

There's more of course ... there always is, but this is what comes to mind (ahhhh, which mind?!?) when you ask me about the Mind of Christ...!

Sounds a bit like "me" and a bit like "Me", no...? ;)

Shalom, Dena

MysticBrit said...

Superb, Dena. Thanks:)

The only slight difference for me, and it's not really even that, is the use of the word, "dragging" for what is happening. It seems to me that it comes down to God "irresistibly drawing" God In Me - God returning to God, in a glorious completed circle of Love. Augustine spoke of our hearts being restless till they rest in God, their true Home: Like returning to Like, All Creation returning to that of which it is an Expression.

This all makes my mind spin round in ever-decreasing circles till it disappears up its own logical conclusions, but it makes my heart dance for joy!:D

And as for your last bit -

...the unseen/spiritual reality is more real than the seen/tangible appearance of reality...

- I'm reminded of the printing error message in the Chinese version of Windows -

The Tao that is seen
is not the True Tao, until
you bring fresh toner.

Ah so.;)

Dena said...

LOL - you can blame Stron's Concordance for the "drag" part.

That's how they define "draw" ... which rather blows my mind, in that it becomes INevitable...!

It's a loving drag ... no violence involved..!

Shalom, Dena

Dena said...

I meant "StronG's Concordance...! :)

MysticBrit said...

I suppose Ol' Man Strong was a child of his time, his culture... that might just have something to do with it. Just thinking aloud...

It's an irresistible attraction to me, Dena - but then I'm coming to see that there's no separation anyway, and never was, so no 'dragging', 'drawing' or whatever is even necessary, but simply an opening of our spiritual eyes to the reality of One-ness.

And Reality is allways pretty inevitable, so I've heard;)

Dena said...

I like how you put this, Harry ... yes that fits nicely.

Shalom, Dena