Tuesday, September 29, 2009

The Fulfillment of ALL -- Why I See as I See ...

I want to directly address those who wanted to know more about how I've come to see that all biblical prophecy is now (and has long been) fulfilled.

I didn't arrive here overnight, of course. It was a long and quite-wrenching journey. My mind, like all human minds, sought to cling to what it *thought* it knew ... anything new, or different, is at first perceived as a direct-threat (truth is most-always first perceived to be a blasphemy ... take Jesus' teachings as a case in point), and thus resisted, if not outright attacked.

We, as human beings, seem to prefer the "security" of the familiar, rather than the risk of the Truth-adventure.

I fully understand that ... I've lost half my hair, much sleep, and most of my friends, in this Truth-adventure ...!

(& I notice that Jesus said this would happen ...)

Anywho, I came to the place where I had to question "what the hell is hell" about 2+ years ago ... and it was INtense! Much agony in the process. I had come to a place where I believed it in my heart, more than I believed the traditional story of "hell" ... and yet, when I read the last chapter of Isaiah, wherein it was the "new heavens and new earth", and there were all those bodies being viewed with much shame ... this did NOT fit my understanding of this being the "utopia" I'd been taught was coming (the Reign of Christ on the earth), and my understanding that all would be saved...!

This appeared to be a case for annihilation, more than for the salvation of all.

And so, I was perplexed, and I cried out to God for His understanding ... I wanted Truth.

Enter my friend, who had been checking into a concept called "Preterism" ... the belief that "all is past." I'd never heard of it. But, at her urging, I purchased a book called "Beyond Creation Science", and read it ... it was new to me, and yet it made sense ... fitting the scriptures together in a way that the traditional view never did. In order to believe the traditional view, it requires that we suspend our thinking, that we overlook inconsistencies and incompatibilities that a literal-rendering causes ... and that we assume a "we can't know truth here and now - we just have to go on faith, and truth that God will make sense of this after we die."

Well, that flies in the face of "you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free" ... "the Spirit will lead you into all truth" ... "[God] desires all men to be saved [from their own dark/erroneous thinking] and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

It seems to me that God *wants* us to know Truth, to know and experience His perspective, to operate in the Mind of Christ -- which we have.

So, what's in the way of knowing this Truth ...? The lies we believe ... the stories of man we've received and believed ... the traditions of man which continue to nullify the word of God (that which the Spirit within is showing us).

So, about 18 months ago (not long ago!), I found myself delving into this understanding of "all is fulfilled" ... wanting nothing but truth ... here's what I wrote then, in May of 2008 (I'll put updated-thoughts in brackets, along the way):


I've been reading "Beyond Creation Science":

http://www.beyondcreationscience.com/

They talked about the "coming in the clouds" ... "coming in the clouds" = judgment, I can see that, biblically -- it makes sense, given how the metaphor is throughout
the OT, and the Jews who were watching Him ascend, would've understood the beyond-the-surface meaning.

(we do seem rather stuck on the surface, in our day and age...)


[When I read this account, in the first chapter of Acts ... I notice that they saw Jesus being lifted up ... and then being obscured by clouds ... and the angels said that HE would return the same way, i.e., obscured by clouds, or "out of their sight" ... this speaks of Him being discerned only spiritually, not literally/physically ... and I recall that Jesus said the Kingdom does not come by observation ... we can't SEE it with physical eyes. The expectation that Jesus would return in a way that would be seen by everyone on earth, is a tradition of man, not aligned with what Jesus actually taught.]

As I continue to read, what REALLY strikes me, is how the war between the Romans and the Jews (AD 70), when the Temple was destroyed, has been just swept aside, in our modern teachings...! I mean, this was a HUGE war! Two million Jews died in Jerusalem -- half were slaughtered (horrendously), and another half died, slowly, from starvation and atrocities committed against them, as the city was
surrounded. Two million! That's enormous in today's population, but can you imagine the enormity of it THEN?


[I've heard people argue that this cannot be true, as Jerusalem didn't then have 2 million occupants ... however, the siege by Rome occurred during a Jewish festival ... when Jews gathered from the whole "world" (known, occupied-by-Jews world) ... in that case, 2 million was then conceivable.]

I've never been taught this! The destruction of the Temple in 70AD has always been a mere blip in history -- just barely mentioned.

It was an incredibly destructive war -- Jerusalem was utterly destroyed, bringing an end to the age of the Old Covenant (& some say, judgment against the city that rejected and killed the Messiah, just as Jesus predicted).

Josephus, a Jewish (non-Christian) historian was one of the few to survive this war (because he defected to Rome, and is considered by Jews to be a traitor, thus not believed), and wrote about it extensively -- his reports eerily echo the predictions of Jesus, the apostles, and even Revelation.

Here's a link to Josephus's "The Wars of the Jews" (scroll down a bit): http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/JOSEPHUS.HTM

Here are some things that stood out to me, in reading "Beyond Creation Science":

- The Bible has nothing to say about the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple as *past* history. The Bible speaks about it only as prophecy. This should suggest that the NT books were already written before this event took place. It seems inconceivable for the NT writers to remain completely silent about the Jewish War and
destruction of Jerusalem with its temple, if these events lay in their past as they wrote the NT.

- Eusebius [known as the "Father of Church History", and, incidentally, an admirer of Origen who was a Christian Universalist] claimed that the early Christians were warned by "approved men" (apostles?) and that they listened, and left Jerusalem and Judea. Eusebius then endorsed the history of Josephus, a Jewish general and
prisoner of war who witnessed the entire siege.

(and then, Eusebius himself is quoted):

"The number of calamities which everywhere fell upon the nation at that time; the extreme misfortunes to which the inhabitants of Judea were especially subjected, the thousands of men, as well as women and children, that perished by the sword, by famine, and by other forms of death innumerable -- of these things, as well as the great many sieges which were carried on against the cities of Judea, and the excessive sufferings endured by those that fled to Jerusalem itself, as to a city of perfect safety, and finally the general course of the whole war, as well as its particular occurrences in detail, and how at last the abomination of desolation, proclaimed by the prophets [Dan 9:27], stood in the very temple of God, so celebrated of old, the temple which was now awaiting its total and final destruction by fire -- all these things any one that wishes may find accurately described in the history of Josephus."

- The difficulty is that most Christians do not know about the Jewish-Roman war. Even those who do know vaguely about this war cannot imagine that anything as horrible as what Jesus predicted could have ever happened in the past. What if Josephus confirms that it did?

- When Rome invaded and destroyed Judea and Jerusalem some 1-2 million people died and 100,000 were taken away into slavery. Yet apparently not one Christian was lost... Jesus had warned His followers and they listened.

- Jesus warned, "For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now -- and never to be equaled again (Matt 24:21)."

And, Josephus wrote: "It appears to me that the misfortunes of all men, from the beginning of the world, are not so considerable as those of the Jews ... This makes it impossible for me to contain my lamentations (The Wars of the Jews, Preface, Para 4)."

- Josephus writes of the false prophets and deceptive leaders who rose up, fooling vast numbers of the people in Judea: "These were such men as deceived and deluded the people under pretense of Divine inspiration, but were for procuring innovations and changes of the government; and these prevailed with the multitude to act like
madmen, and went before them into the wilderness, as pretending that God would there show them the signals of liberty... An Egyptian false prophet that did the Jews more mischief than the former; for he was a cheat, and pretended to be a prophet also, and got together thirty thousand men that were deluded by him; these he led round about from the wilderness to the mount which was called the Mount of Olives ..."

- Josephus goes on to talk of wars, and rumors of wars (numerous ones!), and a great flood, and earthquakes, and famines, persecutions and tribulations, and Jerusalem surrounded by armies (Luke 11:20), and lightning "as from the east to the west": "There broke out a prodigious storm in the night, with the utmost violence, and very strong winds, with the largest showers of rain, with continued lightnings, terrible thunderings, and amazing concussions and bellowings of the earth, that was in an earthquake. These things were a manifest indication that some destruction was coming upon men, when the system of the world was put into this disorder; and any one
would guess that these wonders foreshowed some grand calamities that were coming (Josephus, Wars, Book 4, Chapter 4, Para 5)." Sounds a lot like what Jesus foretold, including, "For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfil ed." (Luke 21:21-23)

- Josephus also wrote, "...neither did any other city ever suffer such miseries, nor did any age ever breed a generation more fruitful in wickedness than this was, from the beginning of the world. (Josephus, Wars, Book 5, Chapter 10, Para 5)."

- Jesus warned about signs in the heavens, including the sign of the Son of Man, when He came in power and great glory (i.e., judgment/vengeance). Josephus writes of what happened just before the calamity began: "... they did not attend nor give credit to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future
desolation, but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them. Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year. Thus also before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the 8th day of the month Nisan, and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour... At the same festival also, a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple... [and don't miss this part!]... a certain prodigious and
incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals, for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. (Josephus, Wars, Book 6, Chapter 5, Para 3)."

- Others in history confirmed the following: the fire in the temple melted the gold so that it ran down into the cracks in the floors. Not only did the Romans tear down the temple, stone by stone ... After the ruins cooled, the Roman soldiers pried up every stone in order to retrieve the gold. The temple was destroyed. Not one stone
was left on another.

- For 1800 years, these historical events were common knowledge among Christians, Yet for reasons unknown, the implications were never systematically explored. Since the rise of modern futurist views of prophecy in the 19th and 20th centuries, this history has largely been forgotten.


[I have since read through some of the writings of the early church "fathers" ... and discovered that many of them did believe that Jesus had "returned", albeit spiritually, as HE had said, and not literally/physically, as the traditions of man teach ... I've written extensively about that elsewhere ... I'll provide a link.]

Ok, folks, this has me stunned. Why is this not common knowledge among the Church? I mean, it happened -- it's verified by secular, eye-witness historians. Why have we not been taught how horrendous that war was, and of the things that happened -- which sound SO much like what Jesus and the apostles wrote about?!? And WHY, if the epistles and Revelation were written AFTER the war, and the destruction of the Temple, why is it not mentioned...? And why is John, during his vision on Patmos, supposedly in ~95AD, told by the angel to measure the Temple, if it were already destroyed (would John not object, if this were being commanded 25 years after it's cataclysmic destruction)?

This puts a whole new understanding on the words of Jesus, when He said, "Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away 'til all these things take place (Matt: 24:34)."

Here's how the Amplifed Bible puts it: "34Truly I tell you, this generation ([a]the whole multitude of people living at the same time, [b]in a definite, [c]given period) will not pass away till all these things [d]taken together take place."

And He also said, 27 "For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. 28I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." (Mt. 16:27, 28)


[Note: this cannot refer to the Transfiguration, which occurred 6 days later ... for there were no angels, no judgment, no manifestation of the Kingdom. Besides, how absurd for Jesus to note that "some of them" would still be alive in 6 days, when they *all* were...! However, forty years from then, while most of them had been martyred, some of them were indeed still alive, when the events of 70AD unfolded. This also does not pertain to Pentecost, which was also devoid of judgment and angels ...]

I also notice that Jesus told Caiaphas, the High Priest in Jerusalem, that he would witness the Son of Man coming into His Kingdom ... according to historians, Caiaphas was alive, and in Jerusalem, in 70AD.


[BTW, about those dead bodies in the new heavens and new earth, prophesied in Isaiah ... as Jesus had also predicted, after Rome had destroyed Jerusalem, the bodies of the Jews were indeed dumped, uncermoniously, into the dreaded and unclean garbage pit of Gehenna ... (erroneously translated as "hell") ... viewed with others in great shame. The "new heavens and new earth is synonymous with the new covenant, and New Jerusalem ... spiritually entered and experienced ... here and now.]

Ok, I'm intrigued ... I'll continue reading about this.

If I've misunderstood what was written in the Bible, due to erroneous teachings of man, I want to know. I want truth. At all cost.


[It has indeed cost me quite a bit ...]

At this point, I still have more questions than understanding --
still can't figure out how 1,000 years of peaceful reign = 40 years
of non-peace, but I'll keep reading and studying this.


[I've come to see the "millennium" or 1,000 years, more symbolically than literally -- I further believe it was never intended to be read literally (Revelation is a symbolic writing ... as apocalyptic literature always is intended). Christianity has done the world a grave disservice in reading the text as literal, rather than as symbolic! The number one thousand means "Divine Completeness" ... what God had designed to show us, through the historic-unfolding of the covenantal-story, had indeed been fulfilled, completed. It was never about a literal 1,000 year reign of Christ ... it was always about the fulfillment and completion of Him being all in all, for those who have eyes to see this ... for those who let go of the Adamic consciousness of darkness/blindness, and who realize that they are (& always have been!) In Christ, in the Christ consciousness of being "born again" to the Abundant Life. It was always about seeing what had always been done, from the foundation of the world, who we had always been, In Him ... and God used the panoply/stage/screen of history to *show* us, allowing the micro-story of our own journey(s) to be writ-large in the out-playing if the macro-story of history -- HIS-story...! Do you see...?]

Yes, there have been those throughout history who have seen this (most have been maligned and killed by the establishment of the institutional church...!). Barnabus, Eusebius, Origen, Athanasius, Bede, and scores of others, were seeing this in full, or in part. It's all there, written down in history, for all to see ... and, apparently, for most to ignore.

THAT is the power of the traditions of man ... the power of group-think ... the power of propaganda ... to believe what we've been told, by humans, over and over, denying/grieving/squelching the Voice of God (i.e., the Word of God within us), enforced by the fear of trusting our own hearts, getting it wrong, and being sitting ducks for the "wrath of God". The God that we've (all, collectively) created has besmirched the true nature, character, and plan of the One True God ... we have "graven images" of a false god in our (collective and individual) minds, which have blinded us to the real God.

But, God wants His reputation, plan, and utter *Victory* over the darkness of man's thoughts, BACK...! He IS awakening us, we ARE awakening, we ARE responding, we ARE coming to see the truth ... and it IS contagious...!

Go and be infectious...! Let your Light so shine...!

Shalom, Dena


P.S. For those who want to *really* dig into this, I had an extensive conversation with some folks on a site called SimpleChurch ... most were opposed, even violently-so, to what I was sharing, but others affirmed that this is what they are seeing, too. It's long, but for those who are being led, it could be a good place to start:

http://tinyurl.com/ycwd62u

For those who would like to read only the excerpts from "church fathers", start here (begin with the 9th post down):

http://tinyurl.com/y9kgjuy


P.P.S. There is an organization that BEAUTIFULLY melds together, all of these seemingly diverse views ... all "saved", all fulfilled, all as One in God ... Presence Internaitonal. While their website is undergoing a complete overhaul, the discussion forum can still be acceessed here: www.presence.tv

Tim King, the CEO, has a new blog as well, about the "Post-Christian" understanding (HIGHLY recommended!): http://postchristianblog.com/

12 comments:

Sue said...

Oh, hooray to hear someone talking about the destruction of Jerusalem. Yes, it answers SO many questions and SO MUCH of what Jesus says makes sense now. Makes you wonder, doesn't it, how easily we skim over things that we don't understand?

I think at this point I am a preterist who slips into partial-preterism. I am firmly convinced about the things that are so patently obviously about what happened in Jerusalem - I have never read before Josephus's account of the comet in the sky. How awesome is THAT!!!

(PS: Speaking of comets and stars and such things, have you ever explored the accounts of "the gospel in the stars"? Evidences of what astrology used to be before it got a little bit bastardised into the thing we know today? All those different constellations all pointing to the virgin birth. We can stll see some of the evdence for it in the names - Virgo, Leo the Lion, etc. It's fascinating, illuminating and just beautiful to think that God would set in the sky the story of the redemption to come. I must blog about it all one of these days :)

PSS: Can I ask a favour? When you are linking to other sites, could you put in some html to make it easier? At the beginning put a "" before the link and then after the link put "" (both without the quotes). That way, people will be able to click on your link - much easier.

Thanks for sharing this post. Good stuff :)

PSSSSSSSSS: I have got a bit behind here so maybe you talked about this in a previous post, but so do you think Jesus is coming back literally at some point? I love what NT Wright says about the redemption of the creation etc. Holding those ideas in front of me with what I see about the whole AD 70 thing, everything feels much clearer. But I still really must admit that I do hold to a literal return of Jesus and a new heavens and a new earth. Be interested in your thoughts

cwtpmom said...

Dena I enjoyed reading what Josephus said about the destruction that took place in 70AD. This article was written in 1945, and it talks about what happened in 70AD as though that area is still under tribulation. Frankly, I believe it is, and will be until the Jewish people accept Jesus as their Christ, which they won't fully understand until He comes some time in the future and reveals Himself to them.

This one is also interesting. And, for another list of articles from an LDS perspective, here, and as this is one in particular of interest to Christians.

Sue, thanks for the hint of "quotation marks", you mustn't forget to put quotation marks around the link you want to beep to, but before the link type (without spaces between letters) "< h r e f=", and at the end of the link type ">" then type the word or phrase you want to see in your post, "word or phrase", and after that "< / a >", but I had to make spaces in order for this not to reject the html in explaining it, so leave the spaces out.

It appears from my study that when God issues a time for tribulation it lasts a long time. One example in our day, the wars that will cover the whole earth, beginning in North Carolina. We are still in that era, and will be until the world repents, and if I may add, accepts the "http://cwtpmom.wordpress.com/2009/09/27/liberty-and-the-day-of-atonement/"

I had fun experimenting with html, thanks to Sue, but it won't allow me to link to my blog at wordpress. There must be a little rivalry between wordpress and blogspot??

Bob Harkema said...

Mat 5:18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Almost every "orthodox" Christian sect, movement and denomination believes that the Mosaic sacrificial laws are obsolete so does it not follow logically that heaven and earth have already passed away? Perhaps "it is finished".

MysticBrit said...

Thanks again for all the wonderful work you do, Dena, through great trouble 'n' strife, to get at the Truth.

I'm keeping this as my Preterism Primer for anyone who's interested.

You've gained at least as many friends as you've lost, I'll wager!

Namaste, my friend.

Harry

Dena said...

I appreciate your perspective, cptmom ... however, what you describe doesn't fit what God is showing me ... I see that the prophets described the new covenant as an "end of iniquity" ... no more wrath (which was always just our perspective, and not God's). As Jesus said (& as Bob pointed out), either it's ALL fulfilled, or we're still under the FULLness of the Law (old covenant).

I do not see a future coming of Jesus (this is responding to Sue as well)... for if we are waiting for a literal/physical fulfillment of prophecy, then we are going *backwards* into what is lesser/inferior.

(I see that the Jews, insisting on a literal fulfillment of a King on a throne, missed the coming of Jesus the first time ... and Christians, insisting on a literal fulfillment of a King on a throne, missed/are missing the coming of Jesus the second time. To insist on a literal fulfillment is to miss the point, and to miss the significance of what is *at hand* ... will the world, the environment, the interactions of mankind improve, in the future? YES! As more and more awaken to what IS, rather than believing the insanity of the Christian forever-in-limbo, tread water 'til Jesus comes to fix it all -- and burn the majority -- message...!)

The entire old covenant was tangible/physical/external ... and the fulfillment was spiritual/internal. The spiritual is superior to the tangible. Always. Law on stone became law on hearts ... circumcision of flesh became circumcision of "hearts" ... external observation of Sabbath became internal Sabbath rest (way of Life) ... seeing God as external/distant became realizing God as internal/nearer-than-breath/within. The Kingdom, as Jesus put it, does *not* come by observation (IOW, we cannot see it with our physical eyes) ... it is within us, in our midst, accessible by way of understanding ... repenting (turning from) the carnal/egoic mind, and realizing that we HAVE the Mind of Christ. This happens one heart at a time, not in a cataclysmic world-wide "enforced from outside of us" event. God has done all that needs to be done ... "It is finished." The only thing remaining is for us to *awaken* to what *IS*, to what God has done, to who we ARE, so that all of creation will be released from the madness of our egoic/separation-mentality thinking...!

With all due respect to NT Wright, I believe he's still a bit caught up in traditional-think, and that may be skewing what he can yet see. I know that he's met with the folks at Presence, and he preferred (at least at that time) the traditional message).

Of course, the Spirit IS leading us into all truth, and Christ IS drawing all men to Himself, so it's inevitable ... we all must be willing to examine what we've been taught to believe (or have assumed), and willing to let go (i.e., "die to self") so that our minds can be renewed, so that lies can be replaced with truth, so that what is in the way can fall away, and we can HERE AND NOW experiene the Abundant Life with is our ultimate reality.

As a man thinks in his own heart, so is he. I had to ask myself, "is what I believe enabling me to live the Abundant Life? Is what I believe leading me to Fear, or to Perfect Love?"

IOW, how are your current beliefs working for you...?

(& thanks for the HTML lesson ... so, do I just put double-quotation marks around anything I want to link? not sure I yet "grasp" it ... haven't deciphered all the ins and outs of this blog-site yet ... been too busy blogging...!) ;)

Dena said...

cptmom ... thanks for those links. It's vindicating to see that the connection between the warnings of Jesus, and the occurances of 70AD, are recognized.

What I don't find myself in agreement with, are the further prophecies of Joseph Smith, who says that all of those events would occur again. I see the whole thing as a cataclysmic shift from the old to the new covenants ... and that the new covenant is a *fulfillment* of ALL that was foretold by the ancient prophets (and, according to Jesus, unless and untill ALL is fulfilled, we'd remain under the Law).

AISI, the prophecies of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel and Exekiel preclude a further "this will happen again" prophecy ... perhaps Joseph Smith, a product of his day, when hell and brimstone warnings were rampant all around him in his youth, was strongly influenced by those teachings, and didn't yet see the fulfillment of them (which had to be the total fulfillment), in 70AD.

The Spirit has not led me to consider JS a prophet ... and while he, an offspring of God, was no doubt as able to connect with God's truths as any of us are, I see that he too is as fallibly-human as the rest of us, as prone to confusing our own egos with the Spirit as the rest of us.

AISI, many of his teachings and prophecies (& actions) are a result of an ego-writ-large, rather than a leading of the Spirit.

And so the Spirit does indeed teach me what He has for me, using all things ... I am open to exploring all things, and I have found much that your church, as well as all other human understandings, is able to be used as furtherance of Light.

But I do not swallow-whole *any* religion, *any* doctrine, *any* tradition of man ... for they are all also capable of nullifying the word of God (that which God speaks to us, within us, as we tune in).

Sue said...
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Sue said...
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Sue said...

Hey CWTP and Dena, I just read your comments and questions re html. I wrote two responses to that but I'm deleting them because I wrote them before I read all the comments :) No, you don't put double quotation marks around anything. At the start, before the actual link, you put < a > (but just without spaces between the letters). After you finish your link, to "close" the command, you put < / a > (without the spaces).

Hmmmm, re the whole literal/physical is inferior thing ... I am totally with you as regards to what you have said in your response (great stuff). The limitations lie with us. What this current age could actually look like is anyone's guess as to what it currently is, and yes, as a man believes, so he is. Totally!

I'm just not convinced that that's the entirety of the whole story. I do not wish to fall into the ditch of saying that the spiritual is always better than the literal and therefore begin following down the road that literal is something childish to be put away. To fall into the amazing understanding of just what God has already done does not mean that there is more to come in ages to come in terms of embodiment and change.

But maybe you're right about that too. We do get overly attached to our belief systems, don't we? Especially the stuff that gets us excited. Keeping flexible the longer we go on in this journey requires rather a bit of exercise and humility, I'm finding :)

Dena said...

Yay! I figured out the linkage! (I shall now do happy links!)

Sue ... here's my bottom line, for how I see it ... Jesus said that ALL of the law and the prophets had to be fulfilled in order for us to move out of the old covenant/Law, and until all was fulfilled, we'd still be *in* the old covenant (as they were, during the time of the writing of the NT).

Jesus' parousia (return) was prophesied -- it was part of the "law and the prophets" that had to be fulfilled.

Therefore, if we are still awaiting his return, or still awaiting the fulfillment of *any* prophecy, then we are still, here and now, under the law, in the old covenant.

Make sense?

Sue said...

Yeah, that makes sense. But it doesn't mean that he can't come again, know what I mean? That all makes sense - although verses about takign the throne of David come to mind that make me wonder. But I'm not talking about the old law. I'm talking about what's to come next. I just can't help wondering, you know?

Anyway, I came back here with my usual thing of thinking, "Oh, what if I've pissed Dena off by thinking my thoughts?" You know how it's like in some situations, some people get very defensive about their position. But I really dont' know why I would have thought taht about you (I guess it's just called paranoia, heh)

Dena said...

Peace, Friend...! :)

No pissiness happening unto me, or from me to you...! (though I have had 3 cups of coffee and therefore need to recycle them... but that's a 'nother definition!)

I'll answer the rest of your comment in a blog-post, as there may be others who might want to read it ...

Shalom, Dena